A couple of weeks ago my Sunday school teacher gave an assignment and I totally forgot about it. Today, I was reminded of it so I'm doing it now.
The assignment was a simple one. Ask people the following question:
What does it mean to be a Christian?
Re:target audience?
Mr. Muskrat on 2004-05-13T11:11:48
Both. I expect to get different answers from everyone.Re:target audience?
mary.poppins on 2004-05-14T05:24:51
I see. OK, here I go then:
Any faith-based belief system is the triumph of wishful thinking
over rational consideration of reality.
Re: rational thinkers
ybiC on 2004-05-14T14:09:07
Hiya mary.poppins.
That's a popular opinion held by many intellectuals (as I did for 15 years). Keep in mind though, that fine peeps such as Donald Knuth and our very own Larry Wall hold strongly to such "wishful thinking".
It's sad that the anti-evolution flat-earth Scopes and Gallileo Trials type stuff gets all the attention. There's no shortage of rational, thinking, extremely intelligent men and women for whom faith is a major part of their lives.Re: rational thinkers
mary.poppins on 2004-05-14T17:23:19
I am aware that wishful thinking can be very appealing to
even very intelligent people. Just because one is able to
think, does not imply that one wants to think.
Here's definition #2 from the American Heritage Dictionary,
of faith:
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material
evidence.
It's that definition of faith that I was referring to in my
comment about "faith-based belief systems".
When supernatural beings start showing up in verifiable
ways, then I'll pay attention. In the meantime, my working
theory is that it's all bunk. Actually, it's harmful bunk,
because worrying about the fate of souls in the afterlife
distracts people from *real* problems that need fixing in
the shared *reality* we live in.
It's hard enough to encourage people to think for themselves
(instead of accepting the line of authority figures), even
without a belief system which is predicated on suspension of
rationality.
Re: rational thinkers
ybiC on 2004-05-15T12:52:32
Are you asserting that Wall and Knuth, for example, don't want to think? That could easily be seen as pretentious and vain, eh.
And what college philosophy professor taught you to think like him? Er, I mean "think for yourself"?
;^) On the other hand, phat props to ya for the respectful way you asked about Muskrat's intended audience before sharing your thoughts.
Re: rational thinkers
mary.poppins on 2004-05-15T19:26:26
> Are you asserting that Wall and Knuth, for example, don't
> want to think?
Apparently, they don't want to think about everything.
> That could easily be seen as pretentious and vain, eh.
Appeals to authority *really* don't have any effect on me.
> And what college philosophy professor taught you to think
> like him? Er, I mean "think for yourself"?;^)
Yeah, whatever, I didn't take any philosophy in college.
I've been a rationalist type for as long as I can remember.
You know, asking the parents the never-ending cascade of
"why" questions.
And furthermore, it is my observation from reading history
that faith-based belief systems typically reinforce
authoritarian social structures. I really do not like such
social structures.
> On the other hand, phat props to ya for the respectful way
> you asked about Muskrat's intended audience before sharing
> your thoughts.
Glad you appreciate that. I didn't want to intrude on a
delusional echo-chamber.
Re: rational thinkers
ybiC on 2004-05-16T03:37:01
Hmmm... not sure what authority it sounded like I was appealing to, but I assure you none was intended.And I offer my apologies for (incorrectly) assuming the bit about a college philosophy course. My bad. Although I do share your rationalist mindset.
In your readings on history, do you recall any mention of impetus from numerous Christians in:
- bringing about the abolition of slavery in the US
- working for widespread literacy in the west, when such was unheard of
- racial equality in the US in the mid 20th century
- establishment of manymany hospitals before such were common
- the US war of indpendance
The substantial and key involvement of Christians in these may not have mention in your high school or college history texts, but dig a bit deeper and you'll find that they're true. And if Christianity were a matter of doing more good than harm, one could easily compile a list of bad'uns like the crusades, Spanish inquisition, Scopes monkey trial, etc etc. But a good/bad ledger isn't what being a Christian is about, and that's not my point, yo. Look back through history and you'll find authoritarian totalitarian regimes all over the religious/atheistic map. Recent notables include Stalinist Russia, Cambodia, North Korea, communist China. Not much faith-base in those extreme examples.
Of course, some Christian groups are indeed (wrongly) authoritarian, and I share your disdain for such. As did Jesus himself with the hypocritical local politico-religious leaders of his time. He was so distressed and angry with them that he compared them with a den of snakes, and said that they were worse than murderers and thieves.
In any event, I respect your thoughts and opinions, and your right to express them. My own experiences and research have led me to different conclusions, but that's cool.Re: rational thinkers
Mr. Muskrat on 2004-05-15T14:34:18
You missed a few definitions of faith.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.My faith (5) is based upon faith (1), faith (3), faith (4) and faith (6) as well as a whole lot of other things. You will notice that I left out faith (2). I did that because I have all of the material evidence and logical proof that I need.
Looking around at the earth or the stars in the heavens, I have all of the material evidence that I need. It's absolutely stunning! It's totally beautiful! So I have my material proof, all of the earth and it's inhabitants.
How can anyone believe that all of this just happened? That it's all just a string of coincidences that everything on this planet just happened to happen in such a way that we have not only have a nice place to live but also that we live and that all of the cosmos also exists. Do you know the odds of that quite large string of coincidences occurring in the correct order to bring about a coincidence on the scale of the cosmos and yet still manage to put life on this planet? It's astronomical!
I know a little something about the scientific teachings of today. Law of Conservation of Matter: During an ordinary chemical change, there is no detectable increase or decrease in the quantity of matter. The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form.
I also know that everything is made up of smaller components (except possibly for the elementary particles of quantum mechanics which are the smallest components that we know of right now). Let's call everything that is not the smallest component, a composite. I also know that composites, things made up of components, cannot cause their components to come into existance. (For example, a water molecule cannot create the hydrogen and oxygen that it is made from in order to bring itself into existance.) The universe is made up of composites of components and as such the universe cannot create the very building blocks of itself.
If the universe cannot create its components, and the components cannot just come into existance, then we can conclude that there must be an external power or entity, that is not the universe. That power or entity is God. So I have my logical proof.
God created a finite amount of matter and energy. He crafted it all into the universe in which we live. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1
He saw fit to blow breath into the greatest of all creation, man. "The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. " - Genesis 2:7
Re: rational thinkers
mary.poppins on 2004-05-15T19:47:29
> I did that because I have all of the material evidence and
> logical proof that I need.
Evidently, you do not need very much. In fact, so little
that I think you are not being honest with yourself about
meaning #2.
> Looking around at the earth or the stars in the heavens, I
> have all of the material evidence that I need. It's
> absolutely stunning! It's totally beautiful! So I have my
> material proof, all of the earth and it's inhabitants.
Hm. You find the world beautiful. This proves that (some
translation of the texts that comprise) the Christian Bible
is the word of a unseen supernatural entity? Interesting.
I fail to see the connection.
> How can anyone believe that all of this just happened?
> That it's all just a string of coincidences that
> everything on this planet just happened to happen in such
> a way that we have not only have a nice place to live but
> also that we live and that all of the cosmos also exists.
> Do you know the odds of that quite large string of
> coincidences occurring in the correct order to bring about
> a coincidence on the scale of the cosmos and yet still
> manage to put life on this planet? It's astronomical!
The odds of things being the way they are, independent of
the question of human existence, might indeed be very small.
But that is not the situation. It is a *given* that there
are humans around -- you're one of them! So *given* that
humans exist, it's not just likely, but *necessary* that
humans live on a planet that can support them.
Think of it this way: *given* that you see the head of
Washington on a quarter, it is *implied* that the coin toss
was heads. It's not some sort of odd coincidence that
suggests that there was some divine intervention in the coin
toss.
Please, think this through carefully. If it doesn't make
sense to you, talk it over with other people. It's an
important principle that applies to lots of things, not just
cosmology.
> I know a little something about the scientific teachings
> of today. Law of Conservation of Matter: During an
> ordinary chemical change, there is no detectable increase
> or decrease in the quantity of matter. The Law of
> Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be
> created or destroyed, but can change its form.
Up to a point -- atomic weapons, etc., would not work if
these laws were more than approximations.
> I also know that everything is made up of smaller
> components (except possibly for the elementary particles
> of quantum mechanics which are the smallest components
> that we know of right now). Let's call everything that is
> not the smallest component, a composite. I also know that
> composites, things made up of components, cannot cause
> their components to come into existance. (For example, a
> water molecule cannot create the hydrogen and oxygen that
> it is made from in order to bring itself into existance.)
> The universe is made up of composites of components and as
> such the universe cannot create the very building blocks
> of itself.
A strange argument. Stars produce oxygen, starting from
protons, through several fusion reactions. Matter and
energy are actually interconvertible, in any case.
Did you come up with these arguments yourself, or did you
hear them from someone with little knowledge of physics?
> If the universe cannot create its components, and the
> components cannot just come into existance, then we can
> conclude that there must be an external power or entity,
> that is not the universe. That power or entity is God. So
> I have my logical proof.
Here are some possibilities omitted from your argument:
1) The laws you referenced above are approximations
2) Physical laws are not constant over time
3) The power or entity is not the Christian God, but
actually a Great and Wise Sea Turtle.
Note that (1) is true, and (2) is possible, though I
consider (3) unlikely.
> God created a finite amount of matter and energy. He
> crafted it all into the universe in which we live. "In the
> beginning God created the heavens and the earth." -
> Genesis 1:1
What is the point of quoting Genesis here? Lots of oral
traditions have creation stories. You could choose any of
them, and irrationally assert their truth, but I'd still
find it entirely unconvincing.
Re: rational thinkers
Mr. Muskrat on 2004-05-16T00:51:58
Look, I am not trying to win you over to Christ. This is too impersonal a medium for that. I am trying to show you a glimpse of how I, a christian, see things. I am not saying that you must read this or that you must believe what I am trying to say. I doubt that you will even understand it but I am not going to let that stop me from saying it though.
If you read the paragraphs about material evidence together it makes more sense than seperately, but whatever. Read it however you like.
If you listen to non-christians talk about the origins of the cosmos, our planet and life on this little planet, they claim that there was this big explosion and all of the gases expanded outward. They say that the conditions were just right, that as those gases cooled off, they came together and formed the stars and planets. They also say that the conditions were just right for life to form on this tiny, little speck that we call earth. They also claim that the conditions were just right for life to evolve to the point that we are at now, with humans being highly intellegent beings. That's a pretty big string of coincidences that could never, ever possibly happen because it all started out with a fallacy. Where did the energy for the "big bang" come from? What about the gases that were supposedly thrust outward? They can't answer those questions and that is what I was trying to point out. The gases and energy had to come from somewhere. Matter and energy do not just spring into existance unless there is an omnipotent Creator, God is generally what I call Him, to make them spring into existance. Science must follow its own rules and frankly, all theories that do not include God disobey those very rules. (Yeah, God disobeys our rules too but then again, He isn't bound to our rules. He's God. He plays by His own rules.
;-) I do not understand what point you are trying to make about the coin toss. Are you saying that you did or did not see the coin toss? If you saw it, then it is not implied that it landed on heads, you would have seen the coin toss and know that it landed on heads. If you did not see the coin toss, you cannot imply anything about the coin toss except that it either landed on heads or tails.
Strange argument? You're just furthering my point that about the conservation of matter and energy. That star you talk about, it's a big burning ball of gases. Lots of gases. It's producing quite an enormous amount of energy by "burning" the gases. (Yes, I'm simplying greatly.) It's also rearranging molecules. So it could very well produce oxygen. It doesn't produce it from nothing, it's only using what it already has. It can't produce something from nothing anymore than the void can spring forth gases and energy to create a universe.
Being the American that I am, I attended and yes, even graduated from high school. While in high school, I took three years of science. While I am not sure how it happened, some time in those three years, I was actually taught a thing or two about the science that was known at the point in time. It's a wonder that I remember any of it at all. I have probably gotten quite a bit of it wrong. It really doesn't matter because it makes sense to me.
The point of quoting Genesis? It's my Holy book. I quote from it quite often. Moreso, now that I am reading it on a regular basis. You should try reading it sometime. There's more than just religion in there. You might even... *gasp* learn something from it. Proverbs is chocked full of wisdom. Psalm is a good source for studying literature. (Poetry, good stuff!) The Bible is also a good source of historical data.
Going back to one of your first paragraphs, yes I am human but not for long. For you see, one day my body will be transformed. I will live forever. Say what you will, I know where I will spend all of eternity. I will be in heaven, praising the God that created the universe. The God that loves us all so very much. He loves us so much that He sent His only Son, Christ Jesus, the One and Only Messiah, to live among us for about 33 years so that we could learn more about God through Him. God know that Jesus would be put to death as a common criminal. God also knew that the blood of His Son would be the only price high enough to atone for the sins of every generation of man. I thank God that He loves us. I thank Jesus for dying for us. I thank the Holy Spirit for leading me to salvation.
Peace be with you. I will be praying for you.
Re:What it means
ybiC on 2004-05-13T12:57:18
Or what an individual has explored and researched for h(er|im)self, dude. As with any other group, some Christians are rational, logical thinkers.Re:What it means
ybiC on 2004-05-13T13:31:55
I almost forgot to ask, brother in perl TorgoX, what were *you* taught to believe that it means?Re:What it means
TorgoX on 2004-05-13T21:16:00
Television taught me that Christianity means that anyone can talk to God at any time -- thru a special one-eight-hundred number!Re:What it means
ybiC on 2004-05-14T14:17:56
Yep, there are plenty of schuysters out there ready to take your money under false pretenses. Some happen to use religion as their bait.
But I'm glad to see that you choose a reliable and trustworthy source like TV for informing your opinions and worldview.;^D
Being a Christian means (to me) to follow and obey our namesake Jesus Christ. When there are apparant conflicts between teachings of Jesus and that of Moses, Paul, etc to always go with what Jesus is recorded as saying.
Being a Christian means (to me) to treat everyone I encounter with respect, as a fellow human being, whether they be an underpayed waitress or an online community member who disses me. It means loving others even when they don't act lovable.
Being a Christian means (to me) to be upfront with others of my faith, yet not force it on them. To demonstrate that, despite all-too-common stereotypes, that a Christian can be deep and real with their beliefs yet still be a decent fellow to hang with.
Being a Christian means (to me) to do nothing out of habit or ritual, rather to think about what I believe and why I believe it. To check my beliefs against my experiences, and continuously reconcile the two.
Being a Christian means (to me) that I consciously recognize and acknowledge that I'm just as messed up a person as the worst axe-murderer or embezzler, and that only be turning to Jesus am I forgiven and made whole.
Being a Christian means (to me) to trust Jesus and rely on him. To strive to love him more than anything else, and strive to able and ready to give up anything that would come between us.
Being a Christian means (to me) to seek out friendships with other Christians to encourage and support each other, but also to seek out friendships and significant interactions with people of other faiths (and no faiths at all).
Being a Christian means (to me) a bunch of other stuff, but the above should be a pretty good highlight/summary, and I've probably rambled on enough already. Good luck on your homework assignment, Muskrat!
Re:It doesn't have a clear meaning
ybiC on 2004-05-13T17:40:06
There's substantial debate over who split from whom - Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. And for divergence in practice, Eastern Orthodoxy (and others, such as Coptic) seems to have retained much more of the earlie(r|est) practices and style, whereas Roman Catholicism has added and changed both practices and doctrine substantially over the centuries/millenia. Fwiw, I don't subscribe exclusively to either of these two branches of Christianity.
Islam isn't arbitrarily not considered Christian, by either Muslims or Christians, although it's generally accepted as among the Judeo-Christian line. The status of Mohammed and the Quran are among the major differentiators.
But those are pretty much minor quibbles on what's otherwise a pretty darn good historical/doctrinal outline. Keep in mind, though, that for most peeps of a spiritual bent (regardless of religion) that their faith in(clud|volv)es muchmuchmuch more than history and doctrine.
And as a Christian, I also don't see it as my place to dispute how Christian anyone else is. 8^)Re:It doesn't have a clear meaning
phillup on 2004-05-13T19:20:14
Somewhat arbitrarily, Muslims are not considered to be Christians, even though they mostly accept the Bible and believe in Jesus Christ. They claim that Jesus is merely a great prophet, and not the son of God. As for "mostly" accept the Bible, they believe that the Bible describes true events fairly accurately. However they believe that the way that the Bible was written (recollections written down after the fact) introduced distortions.
Now there is something I'd like to see explained. (Why Muslims are not considered Christian.)
Also, where does the Jewish religion fit in?
For a long time I considered "Christian" to be any faith (including Jewish and Muslim) that believed in the "God of Christ" kinda thing. (The God... not the son... that is why I throw the Jewish religion into the mix.)
That last sentence that I quoted rings very true to me.Re:It doesn't have a clear meaning
Mr. Muskrat on 2004-05-13T23:40:07
I do not know enough about about the Muslim faith to comment on it.
If you want to get technical, a Christian is literally a follower of Christ. Since the Jewish people have never recognized Christ as the Messiah, they cannot be called Christians. By that I mean collectively, the Jewish people, not individual Jews. Why? Because many Jews between the time of Christ and now have believed in Christ and made Him their personal Savior.
Islam != Christianity
ybiC on 2004-05-14T14:02:12
Now that'uns easy to answer.
Adherants of Islam aren't considered Christian (by either Muslims or Christians) because Islam does not subscribe to the foundational Christian belief that Jesus of Nazereth is/was the Jewish Messiah. Islamic stature of Mohammed and the Quran are additional points of differentientation, of course. But the over-riding primary commonality amongst all flavors of Christianity is pretty much the recognition of Jesus as Messiah, the Christ.
Likewise for Judaism, excluding Messianic Jews of course.
All three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are monotheistic (one God), are "of the book" (albeit different books), and they share substantial chunks o'(pre)history, but in reality the differences are much greater than the similarities. The distinctions aren't arbitrary at all, they run deep, and result in dramatically different mindsets and worldviews.
